| | 留言人: AHA
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/23/2006 12:59:00 AM
GST is like the World Cup, it will be filled with surprises in every round and we simply do not know the finla result until the last match is played.
Hence we should all turn on the TV and watch the play and hope it will be interesting and entertaining. Win or lose, there is no need to lose sleep over it.
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/23/2006 12:44:00 AM
唐英年話GST只要得到廣泛討論，無論通過與否已有所收獲，這些真係精神勝利法，原來唐英年完全沒有立法意志，初初以為曾蔭權玩唐英年，原來係唐英年玩曾蔭權。
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留言人: AHA
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/22/2006 11:04:00 PM
I am pretty sure GST in HK is good for me, personally.
What ever program and system, there will be "winners" and "losers", even if I am wrong about GST; there will be lots of people worse off than me ... I don't really care that much ... I don't think the HKSAR Government can or will simply force GST to the HK People and in the unlikely event that they can or will force GST in Hong Kong; what can I do?
HIgh taxes ot not, high inflation or not, the best way to survive is to make enough, under whatever circumstances, to get by... that's what I have been doing all my life...may be I have been lucky .. but hey, if luck is on your side, why not live peacefully?
The key is, count on yourself to look after yourself, because you can't really can't on any one else...
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留言人: 426
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/22/2006 5:33:00 PM
Why do you think GST is good for you? Are you sure??
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留言人: AHA
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/22/2006 12:24:00 PM
Simple as ABC ... in a society ... almost every one TAKES and only a few may find it okay to GIVE ... any policy, people would look at it from his position .. if jask-so, support, if no jack-so, no support law ...
MOst people are forced to GIVE ... I mean if there are no taxes ... would people still send money to Government without asking ... no la ...
This is no argument at all..
GST is good for me, I stand to gain from GST so I support GST ... with arms and feet !!!
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留言人: 培聖人
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/22/2006 10:58:00 AM
若有實際迫切性，非要立即征稅不能保持社會穩定，那也是無辦法不采納的稅源。不過，香港目前未到這個地步，也在可見將來都不會到這地步。
我還是那麼幾句，政府管治權威不夠，是無法執行這樣無孔不入的稅制的！強積金進行了幾年，是起了步，但人民自己是受益人，還不致於大力反對。但全世界人類今天都非常醒覺，政府的權力，一定要來自人民授權，其他任何藉口“強政勵治”，就是粗暴專政而已！都一定不被接受！
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留言人: 有心人
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/22/2006 12:21:00 AM
GST預計年收300億，扣除百億行政費，實收200億，美其名擴闊稅基，實則高薪厚祿，製造打工皇帝，百億行政費，竟佔總收入三分之一，真正受益，非富非貧，咁嘅數據，叫人點樣支持。
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留言人: 909
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/20/2006 7:50:00 AM
老友記，水至清則無魚，人至察到則無友，每個制度，有利有害，不必看得太實在，不必好勝逞強，適可而止
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留言人: 426
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/19/2006 12:02:00 PM
old man你有d牛頭唔答馬咀
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留言人: Old Man
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/19/2006 11:24:00 AM
Tat,
Like religion, I should thank god for all the good things that happen to me ...
Well, God and/or 民主 might have given me much good things in life; equally, I have much bad things in life too, and are they given to me by God and/or 民主 ... I don't really know ...
All I know is, life is not fair and living in a real world, I do not have totally freedom to do whatever I want to do (as I am constrainted by God and/or 民主 and a lot of rules and laws etc etc) it doesn't really matter if I believe in God and/or 民主 ... I live my life the best I can within the limitations; whatever it is.
There are people living in a society without God and/or 民主; so may be I am already more lucky than a lot of people ... not that I don't want a better life, I do. But I am realistic and seek to improve my life within a society; within my own mean and beliefs.
Give me a good plan to move forward with 民主; Martin Lee and a few others in HK (I assume these are 民主 fighters) have been "fighting" 民主 for god knows how long ... but what has really been achieved?
One may argue that without the continuous fighting for 民主; we would not have what we have today - but my answer to that is, it is all hypothetical; god knows what would have happened...I don't really live my life wondering if this and that ... sorry, I don't really know too much and I don't take things that are a waste of time too seriously...
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/19/2006 9:11:00 AM
Old Man:
你今天逍遙自在，不是必然的，因為有自由民主，你今天才可以決定你自己的方向。你話無所謂，其實大有所謂！
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留言人: Old Man
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/18/2006 11:49:00 PM
Tat,
Let me make it clear; I am not against 民主, yet I am not for 民主 either. I don't know much and I can't be bothered to pursue 民主. If someone else wants to spend time pursuing 民主, it is fine by me; I won't stop them; I can't anyway. Please be clear that asking questions about 民主 (or anything else) DOES NOT I am against 民主.
Call me lazy if you want, but I would rather be sitting on the fience and what the flow; jump on the wagon if it goes in a direction that suits me. I am just a practical man in a real world.
What is 民主? How far should we go with 民主? Would we ever get enough 民主? What is the agenda of those would are up in arms, shouting, screaming about 民主 every other breath? Does getting more 民主 bring me a better life? It is so complicated that I would get a headache if I think about 民主.
The fact is, we live in a real world and there are goods and bads in almost everything. I have seen with my very own eyes, plenty of goods and bads that 民主 has brought to my life, same applies to almost everything I come across in life. I believe in reality and I believe in practicality. Call me a coward but can I not remain neutral over 民主? Must I take a position and go along with whatever 民主 say?
Politics to me is something people can talk about or even argue about if and when interested. 民主, like religion, like a phone call from a banker or an insurance agent; can be entertaining if I am in the mood, but would be boring and even frustrating when I am not. Believe in what you choose to believe in; at the same time, smile 9but not laugh) at people who disagree with you - if nothing else, we would at least live harmoniously.
Minimum wage
Why should we have minimum wage? If someone takes, someone else would have to give. I am a simple guy living my own life, minding my own business, making my own way; looking after my own family, doing fine - I have never asked for minimum wage, I don't know if I have ever been on minimum wage. I grow up and learn to look after myself and my own family; and I have been looking after someone else and their family, can someone explain to me why I should agree to it?
Okay, there are certain people (e.g. sick and elderly) who might need looking after; why should we be "forced" into contributing? Why can we have freedom over this, those who want to help, help and those who don't want to help, don't have to. By having a system, to me, it means that a lot people are not prepared to help if it is up to them. Otherwise, we would be like church goers, contribute at will.
Enough said, like I said, I don't know much. i have to return to the real world; go to bed as I have to go to work tomorrow, to earn to keep my family, and also keep some other strangers who happen to be living in the same society with me.
I accept but it doesn't mean I have to agree!
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留言人: 寶
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/18/2006 11:46:00 AM
各位可再看今天信報的孔少林，他講施丹和GST的口吻，同我地Tat哥一摸一樣。
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留言人: 426
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/18/2006 8:59:00 AM
tat,今天張五常係apple講d嘢同你差唔多.
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留言人: Edward Li
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/18/2006 2:53:00 AM
Old Man:
We all know everyone born unequally with different capacities. People must work to earn money to purchase goods and services and not what you are saying free for everyone. How can we compete again each other in fairness for financial security as we are difference? Looking back H.K., under British ruling, the government provided housing scheme at the right time for citizens who earned little money so people can spend money for other things and some even can send his kid to study oversea before 1980. Without the help of the government, people will spend their income for renting a shelter, not much to spend for other things. You seem to be a self center person and not knowing sharing the resources are one of the factors for harmony in today society. I had the same though as you are when I was young.
Now I am an old man too thinking about social benefits more than social costs.
Tat 兄:
Minimum wage should base on living index. I know many Chinese (in Vancouver) here working less than minimum hourly rate because the owners find a way to avoid legal matter again Employment Standard. Without the government setting up these standards, more people are in poverty. I only lived in
H.K. for closed to 16 years and I began understand H.K when I had contacted with oversea H.K. students. After 1990, lots of Chinese radio stations and newspapers have established. I know more about China, Hong Kong, Taiwan. Now with the help of internet, I can voice my opinions without boundary. You, Tat, living in H.K, have actually known more about social and political impacts when the government changes policies.
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留言人: 426
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/17/2006 7:06:00 PM
講得好
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/17/2006 7:00:00 PM
Old Man:
別人不同意我對自由經濟的看法，當然無所謂，因為自由經濟的爭議性實在太大了。但我真不明白，你何以連民主這個普世價值都駁，真係絕頂高手！
你另一個有趣問題，就是何解不是所有國家都追求自由經濟與民主，我只能回答因為這個世界還有曾憲梓及鄔維庸等人。
其實民主是一連串的價值，當中包括自由，平等，法治，尊重人權，尊重少數……..投票只是落實民重主的一種手段。至於政客的問題，當你看過中國近代史，你就知道民主的重要了。
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留言人: Old Man
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/17/2006 5:33:00 PM
我遇見缺點最少的制度... this is subjective and I am sure there are plenty who would disagree...
The question is, are 自由經濟 and 民主really the answer? If so, why doesn't every country /society fall for it and turn 自由經濟 and 民主?
Is 民主 really better to the majority of the people within a cociety? In most voting programs, I suspect most people have little or no idea what the real agenda is? It is often nothing more than just a a politician's game (gain)...I am afraid ...
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/17/2006 5:26:00 PM
Old Man:
完全同意！自由經濟跟民主一樣，只是我遇見缺點最少的制度，絕對不是最好或完美的制度。
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留言人: Old Man
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/17/2006 5:07:00 PM
All Ideologies; political or otherwise; make perfect sense and probably can solve all the problems. But in a real world; there is no perfect answer to complicated problem such as "taxation" ... it is all down to those who hold the power ... whatever policies; people can view and analyse them from different angles; likely that everyone would be more interested in looking through one's own perspective ...
I, for one, would go with the flow and just hope that I am dealt with a better hand ... !
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/17/2006 4:55:00 PM
Edward兄：
雖然我是自由經濟主義者，但最低工資法的精神我是支持的，例如照顧老弱傷殘，令弱勢社群活得有尊嚴，用累進税率(progressive tax rate)去再分配社會資源等等，我與你是一致的。
我們分歧在於，我認為最低工資法不但達不到原有效果，反而會幫倒忙，所謂往地獄之路是由善意鋪成的(The road to hell is paved with good intention)。因為政府根本冇辦法或冇本事去收集所有資訊，而且什麽是最低工資，又有非常的主觀性，一旦把最低工資定低了，就苦了弱勢社群，相反把最低工資定高，市場又會把老弱傷殘淘汰，既然如此，我們倒不如把這點活力留給市場吧！
至於全無議價能力的工人，例如清潔小工，怎面對大公司的剝削或壓價，自由經濟主義者是不會助紂為虐的，我會贊成用負入息税(negative income tax)去幫助他們。負入息税概念十分複雜，我不打算在此解釋(其實是冇本事解釋)。
事實上，我認為除國防，外交，保安，環保等幾種私人無法提供的服務外，政府應退出所有社會公共事務，當中包括醫療，教育，房屋，水務，市政，建築，文化，廣播……
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留言人: Old Man
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/17/2006 4:47:00 PM
Often we hear people up in arm about giving the people this and that; but a significant factor is always missing from most if not all of their "proposal" - how do you balance the cash flow...
Okay, minimum wage, okay, throw money at the poor people who need it (who doesn't need more money?); free medical care; free education...free lunches and lower the taxes !! But the question is, who is to fund all these great ideas? Eevryone wants something from the society ... and if possible, most people would not contribute back to the society (given a choice, most tax payers would want to pay zero or as little taxes as possible)... one may argue why those who work hard to make more money should contribute more to subsidize the not-so-well-offs?? All things being equal, everyone should be equal and you make what you can make; everyone should just look after oneselve and not expect others (society) to help them ...
At the end of the day, it is all about maintaining the balance ... those who have would give more to those who don't have ... whatever teh scheme (or scam) is, you will never get full support from everyone - there is almost certain flaws in every system / proposal ...
Like everyone else, my comment offers no solution; as I don't really believe there is a better solution; All we are doing is just to argue over it as and when we have nothing better to do.
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留言人: Edward Li
主題: re:income disparity
留言日期: 7/17/2006 2:24:00 PM
Tat 兄:
Do you think the wage should base on supply and demand of the labour force? H.K has excessive teachers because of
closing many school;but the teacher's salary won't be decreased. That means there isn't any
free market and it always has some groups interfere or monopolize for their interest. For those people earning
substandard money are not very fair because they don't have power to demand reasonable salary to meet their basic
needs.We like to see everyone has extra money to spent for his need, but it always has some
group of people earn excessive money so other group of people earn less money. This is the time for government to
interfere the distribution of income. By setting up rules and regulations in the fiscal policy such as minimum wage, cutting
tax for low income earner,raising tax for high income earner. There are many ways to solve the income disparity. I only
took basic macro and mico economic in the past so I don't know the best way to balance the social and economic needs.
However, I did lots of programming to find optimal solution when I took a course of linear programming.(lots of problems
applied to business).
Tat, You are well thought person,but you can do better if you are more understanding the social implications.
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/17/2006 10:39:00 AM
Edward兄：
無論最低工資的立法動機如何大仁大義，如何美好，但最低工資會令到貧苦大眾萬劫不復，在經濟學界已成定論，有興趣可看張五常或J. A. Mirrlees的著作。
我在此忽想起在麥當勞工作的年長或智障人士，都可能因為最低工資而失業。因為工資一樣，麥當勞或多或少會僱用多些年輕健全的員工，以提高生產力，好心往往會做壞事。
其實最低工資就是勞工市場的價格管制，有可能無害嗎？
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留言人: 701
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/17/2006 1:41:00 AM
Tat 兄那三點﹐我同意。
這六年七年﹐香港社會發展趨勢﹐無論那一方面﹐似乎愈不容低下階層的人。
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留言人: 培聖人
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/17/2006 1:31:00 AM
養肥專業人士不是問題，只要社會真有這個需要，當然無問題。但最重要是，香港本來就是“無稅天堂”，人民連繳收入稅都不很習慣，也從來不想參與社會事務。九七前後，因為受到共產黨專制專政無知集團的威脅，民主意識才有些提高。這樣的公民意識，未夠主動承擔社會責任，推行銷售稅，只會制造假，大，空作業，現金交易，“私人交易”，“地下活動”等等腐敗虛偽行為。這些情況，即令在發達國家，其實也很多問題，不過，既然總體上行得通，這些發達國家政府也只是盡力而為而已！
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/16/2006 7:52:00 PM
銷售稅是一種劫貧濟富的累退稅制，原理上是不義的，那些悲天憫人的福利主義者應該對它手起刀落。但作為支持自由經濟的人，我可從三方面反對GST：
1.擴闊稅基天大的笑話，因為GST是有成本的，如果税率低，這種繁複瑣碎的稅制可能收不回本。如果税率高，不但會打擊消費，而且納稅者會用盡方法逃稅，結果都是得不償失。税率越高，政府收入越少，只是拉發曲線(Laffer curve)的經濟學基本常識。
2.税率低及稅制簡單香港最大優勢之一，如今香港一方面大力發展遊旅，又自封是購物天堂，另一方面卻準備立法打擊零售消費，簡直是自相矛盾。
3.民間支持銷售稅最用力的是會計師或税務學會，世人皆知，稅制越繁複納稅人越苦，但這班税務會計師卻越好生意，得益最大，政府何以要立法去養肥這班專業團體。
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留言人: 培聖人
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/16/2006 2:04:00 PM
銷售稅一定要靠民主制度支持才可行！
這些建議設立銷售稅的“聰明人”對於外國銷售稅得以平穩執行，成為經常性政府收入來源，只知表面成效，卻不知道執行的困難與所需要的公信力與政府權威！
當一個國家社會，一切是人民作主，透過民主選舉和協議，進行社會建設與政策的推行，遇到部份人民反對，不合作，破壞，抗拒，逃避，作假，欺騙等等手法，就可以以人民的名義，強制執行法律，按照民意解釋法律，人民是沒有辯護的餘地的！銷售稅是一種非常繁複瑣碎，牽涉很多定義，細節，誠實，過程控制，記錄要求，審判仲裁等等多項制度配合才可能成功的稅收制度，就更需要有稅收法律的超級權威水平，才可以令人民甘心配合！
香港普選一天不落實，直接選舉一天不落實，靠“強政勵治”的粗暴專政手法，就想開展這樣的稅收制度，結果只可能令人民覺得專制專政集團天天與民爭利，結果整個社會只會充滿仇恨！貪污腐敗，逃稅，隱瞞，地下買賣，所有令社會不能前進的現象一齊出現！
香港這些所謂精英，到底懂不懂社會發展階段，到底明白不明白社會動力所在，不能只學外國一半，又保留共產黨落後的一半呀！
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留言人: Edward Li
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/16/2006 8:47:00 AM
In canada, If the annual income is less than certain amount(single-less than $18000,and family-less than $32000),the Revenue Canada will rebate GST money(from 0 to 80 dollars quarterly;Prorate based on income)even you have no income as long as you file
your income tax. Furthermore, Living in Canada,one has to know government policy in order to receive maximum benifits.
I believe minimum hourly rate is very importance to all people in any country including H.K.. Without this regulation, the gap
betwwen rich and poor is increasing and more people are in poverty. Hong Kong is progressing toward the western standard of basic
living. Each and everyone should have more than basic living as long as one has some contribution(working). This guarentee is
suject to governing body of H.K.. We don't want to see Hong Kong going backward toward China(Now) as many citizens are suffering
without decent living.
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/16/2006 12:48:00 AM
曾蔭權已欽定鬍鬚曾當下任財政司長，故有意玩謝唐英年，令他冇癮下台。( 此說只是謠傳，毫無根據)
另外除了GST外，還有公平競爭法，最低工资及最高工時等法案，威脅香港的自由經濟度。
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留言人: 九萬里
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/15/2006 4:31:00 AM
依照國外先進經驗，GST 此等大事，談談說說，吵吵鬧鬧，非十年八載不能成事。若說曾亞財要玩謝唐英，都只會是公報私仇，應該與連任無關。連任之事，決定權在中央，其他枝葉都不重要，不要說陳方，就是葉劉，都不是說挑戰就可來挑戰的。不過葉劉重出江湖，娛樂指數是頗高的，她的二零一二論，權威性直迫士丹利何，一眾土共一擁而上。鬧得熱烘烘。但中央怎樣把她定性呢？這個最重要。
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留言人: Tat
主題: re:GST
留言日期: 7/14/2006 4:50:00 PM
九萬里兄：
唔好笑我哋往，老曾為求連任，日後見GST被群起而攻之，可能會像"敗走西九"一樣，自動撤回都講唔埋。但第二種可能是老曾故意玩唐英年，係人都知sell GST仲難過sell 23條，直選議員當然不會支持，就算連功能組别(會計界除外)都會反對，唐英年隨時被玩謝。
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留言人: 九萬里
主題: GST
留言日期: 7/12/2006 7:38:00 AM
特區說要開徵商品及服務稅，還把名字叫作 GST，實行把「艱難大」的一套（包括中英文名字）直搬過來。這很可能是因為特區政府內有很多官員一腳踏兩船，明為中國人民，暗為加國居民，熟悉加國稅制之故。
我不懂經濟，這個 GST 有多好多壞我不懂分析，但十多年的 GST 經歷，也可在這裏跟各位分享一下。
依特區報章的報導，這 GST 的徵收範圍，與加國的差不多，遍及商品及服務。加國人喝咖啡要付 GST，買車要付（雖然已付了入口稅），買新屋要付，電費、水費、煤氣、電話、衣著、鞋襪、看電影、坐的士，差不多要用錢的時候就要付稅，除了一丁點的例外－－為照顧貧苦大眾，食物不用付稅，但在餐廳吃個下午茶餐那就要了，因附加了服務之故。有說買燒鴨不用付稅，但你要店舖幫你把燒鴨斬件，那就得付稅了。很好玩的。但看來特區沒得玩這個。
繳稅的方法看來簡單，其實不簡單。除最終消費者外，其他各層的大、小生產商、經銷商，賣出的東西要代政府收稅，但買回來用以出賣的東西所繳了的稅款卻可向政府收回。一件原料經層層的生產及層層的經銷過程已繳了和退了無數次的 GST，直至到了最終消費者才停止。
記得加國的 GST 運作成本約是稅收的 15%，那只是政府的成本，民間的就不知道了。大工廠、企業可能沒大影響，小商業則較蔴煩，但對他們來說不一定是壞事，小商業帳目混亂，這裏塗塗，那裏改改，就可以多拿少給－－不只逃稅，而且刧稅。還有客人可選現金交易，則免付 GST，一家逃利得稅，一家逃 GST，皆大歡喜。港人精靈，鬼主意會更多。
據說特區每年可收 GST 三百億，直線計算，那運作成本就是四十五億，民間要耗用多少，恐怕不在少數，最煩的是，全民每天都要為那蠅頭小數找找續續，只是為了那三百億元。還有的是，人們為了避稅，個個爭往境外消費，或從深圳購物回港，特區政府為填補漏洞，就要增設居民入境免稅額，入境報稅，繳稅。條例架床疊屋，增加就業機會，稅例立時超英趕美，與先進國家看齊。
以往港人常笑加燦住在萬稅國，看來今日吾軀，明朝君體，港人快笑不出來了。
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