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留言人: 木 子 健 主題: re:师说 留言日期: 5/7/2006 5:12:00 AM ·（唐）韩愈· 古之学者必有师。师者，所以传道受业解惑也。人非生而知之者，孰能无惑？惑而不从 师，其为惑也，终不解矣。生乎吾前，其闻道也固先乎吾，吾从而师之；生乎吾後，其闻道 也亦先乎吾，吾从而师之。吾师道也，夫庸知其年之先後生於吾乎！是故无贵无贱无长无 少，道之所存，师之所存也。嗟乎！师道之不传也久矣，欲人之无惑也难矣。古之圣人，其 出人也远矣，犹且从师而问焉；今之众人，其下圣人也亦远矣，而耻学於师。是故圣益圣， 愚益愚。圣人之所以为圣，愚人之所以为愚，其皆出於此乎？爱其子，择师而教之，於其身 也，则耻师焉，惑焉。彼童子之师，授之书而习其句读者，非吾所谓传其道、解其惑者也。 句读之不知，惑之不解，或师焉，或不焉，小学而大遗，吾未见其明也。巫医、乐师、百工 之人不耻相师，士大夫之族曰“师”曰“弟子”之云者，则群聚而笑之。问之，则曰：彼与 彼年相若也，道相似也，位卑则足羞，官盛则近谀。呜呼！师道之不复，可知矣。巫医、乐 师、百工之人。吾子不齿，今其智乃反不能及，其可怪也欤！圣人无常师。孔子师郯子、苌 子、师襄、老聃。郯子之徒，其贤不及孔子。孔子曰：“三人行，必有我师。”是故弟子不 必不如师，师不必贤於弟子。闻道有先後，术业有专攻，如是而已。李氏子蟠，年十七，好 古文、六艺，经传皆通习之，不拘於时，学於余。余嘉其能行古道，作师说以贻之。 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Gary Leung '70 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/5/2006 4:53:00 AM Tat, You are absolute, a GOOD teacher has a positive impact in the student's life, s/h inspires the student's motivarion, morality, conduct and so on. On the land of liberty, everyone has the right to express oneself, and I admit my argument is a little offensive. I personally accept full responsibility for any discomfort you guys may have experiencied. Gary Leung '70 Sacramento, California 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: 李忠榮 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/4/2006 9:38:00 PM 陳老師：你好！ 很開心老師平安回到澳洲。 復活節期間，我到美國探望親人，故此未能在第二次與你再見，內心有些歉意。 陳老師，我的班主任，你的教育觀，是讓我們有能力應付未來的挑戰，畢生感激。 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: 寳 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/3/2006 9:52:00 PM Tat，在網上找到陳公博的對聯應是“大海有真能容(容人)之量，明月以不常滿為心”。 你的記性退化了，哈哈！ 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Big Nose 1977 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/3/2006 9:26:00 PM Firstly, I am honoured to have Master 陳明生 submitting a response; not a brief one but one with sustance, to this topic I started ... for that, I thank you Master 陳明生!!! Let me explain, I always have some questions for the teachers and for whatever reasons; I never got to ask them (or rather dared not ask them)when I was at Pui Shing...it is more to do with curiosity than anything else ... Teachers play a very important role in the lives of the pupils they teach; there is no denying. And like Master 陳明生 said, teacher could influence the pupils in various ways, intentionally or otherwise. I totally agree that teachers are only part of the equation and it is impossible to assess or quantify their contributions to the pupils' success or failure. The original question of this thread was intended as an attempt to try to understand if and what teachers think about the pupils they teach. I guess teachers cannot form an assessment of every pupil they teach, but I wonder if teachers would generally look at some of the pupils and form an assessment (or view) about their future - and that years down the road, they would see if their assessment was correct o not. To me, compensation is really a complicated subject and I wonder if HR experts would have all the answers. I don't claim to know much on this subject, but one thing I know for sure is that in a real world, one's [financial] worth working in a job is simply equal to how much one actually gets paid right now; not a penny more, not apenny less ... one can claim over or under paid, but the true is that if what you are getting now is the true; rightly or wrongly. This, again, is a very complicated sibject; that perhaps would deserve to be discussed in another thread... 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Big Nose 1977 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/3/2006 9:26:00 PM Firstly, I am honoured to have Master 陳明生 submitting a response; not a brief one but one with sustance, to this topic I started ... for that, I thank you Master 陳明生!!! Let me explain, I always have some questions for the teachers and for whatever reasons; I never got to ask them (or rather dared not ask them)when I was at Pui Shing...it is more to do with curiosity than anything else ... Teachers play a very important role in the lives of the pupils they teach; there is no denying. And like Master 陳明生 said, teacher could influence the pupils in various ways, intentionally or otherwise. I totally agree that teachers are only part of the equation and it is impossible to assess or quantify their contributions to the pupils' success or failure. The original question of this thread was intended as an attempt to try to understand if and what teachers think about the pupils they teach. I guess teachers cannot form an assessment of every pupil they teach, but I wonder if teachers would generally look at some of the pupils and form an assessment (or view) about their future - and that years down the road, they would see if their assessment was correct o not. To me, compensation is really a complicated subject and I wonder if HR experts would have all the answers. I don't claim to know much on this subject, but one thing I know for sure is that in a real world, one's [financial] worth working in a job is simply equal to how much one actually gets paid right now; not a penny more, not apenny less ... one can claim over or under paid, but the true is that if what you are getting now is the true; rightly or wrongly. This, again, is a very complicated sibject; that perhaps would deserve to be discussed in another thread... 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Tat 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/3/2006 1:26:00 PM Gary兄: 先回應你以下２點： 1.你覺得你的例子合理嗎？大鼻話齋，樹大有枯枝，你的例子真係好笑！ 2.我十幾年前在中大已有學生評核老師的制度了。 我其實是樂於挑戰中國傳統文化的人，但仍認為尊師重道是不可挑戰的價值。點解？可能我是obstinate people或stubborn pighead掛。 最後我送陳公博的一副對聯給你: 大海真有容人之量， 明月以不常滿為心。 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: 陳明生 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/3/2006 12:33:00 PM 各位校友： 大鼻最近又帶出一個『老師』的話題。 首先讓我回應他的問題。我個人認為，教學生時只能掌握多少他或她在本科學習的進展，極其量可預知他或她在整體學習上的成功率，絕不能預知將來他或她變成龍或蟲。 今天社會，分工細密，職業纇別繁多，青少年在學校得到的東西，有多少是與他們長大後的事業拉上關系呢？ 從成本效益壯角度看，老師工作的價值，非常微小，遠遠比不上學徒制中的專業導師。 但是，要留意的是：人的成長過程中，其複雜的程度遠遠超過漁農業、工商業產品的製造過程，且其間的變數尤多。漁農業、工商業的生產，從原料（苗種、肥料、飼料、原材料、配件、、）的選擇、配對，到施工過程（施肥、喂飼、製造程序、、）都依一定的準則和步驟，而產品的質量也可準確預測得知。返觀人生下來，除了基因是與父母、父母的種族有密切的關系外，成長後是個怎樣的人、誰也不能預測得知。這個新個體將來要與存在著的群體融合，一定要接受『栽培』，這就是幼兒教育，中小學教育的功能。而老師就是負起這項『栽培』的責任。況且，人類社會價值所包含的要素，如語言、文字、文化、行為、思想、倫理、知識，都要經過老師慢慢地逐點逐滴地灌輸給學生。正因為社會的分工細密，老師就代替父母擔當這項栽培的工作。 個別老師的工作，對學生影響有多大？我實在不知。但老師們在社會的職能，卻是不可或缺。我發現在教學過程中，某些環節影響學生非常深遠。那怕是一句無心的說。有時候，刻意去做的工夫，卻得不到成果。不像種花，花卉經施肥後，過些時它的枝葉便變得嫩綠起來。 你問我，老師薪酬值多少？我不可能交出具體的答案。但最低限度要給他們一個溫飽安穩的生活，使能安心工作。大家同時亦想想，醫生、工程師、律師的薪酬應該是多少？清潔工人、油漆工人、製衣工人又要多少？香港特區政府的高官、行政首長、香港金融管理局局長的薪酬，又值那麼高嗎？當牧師的、佛門住持的、南無先生的又應如何？ 是次返港，得到很多學生款待，衷心感謝。又逢金文泰中學八十周年校慶，晚會上與老師相遇，恭恭敬敬的向他們問安，執弟子禮儀，很是歡喜快樂。 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Big Nose 1977 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/3/2006 10:12:00 AM Gary, Thanks for joining the thread. I do not think we should generalise; one bad apple in a tree does not, I stress, does not make the tree a bad tree. Like I said, there are flaws in every system; those we should not condone them but there are times we simply have no choice but to accept the minor flaws - the world will be a better one if we have minor flaws than major ones ... Tat, There is no denying that money and power can be evil, we see it everyday, every where .. anything, if taken to the extreme is dangerous... 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Gart Leung '70 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/3/2006 3:51:00 AM Big Nose. Your comment is articulated and I totally agreed with what you said. Those obstinate people saying being a teacher is superior, it really cracks me up, a teacher is no better than any other occupations in this society. If they need to be honorable what we suppose to do to the bus-driver, butcher, cook, politician, attorney, tv host, MD, nurse and engineer. Once in a while, in this country(US) we heard some low life looser teachers lured their students to serve them illegally. Teacher is just like anybody else in society s/h is part of it, and no particular. I remember while I was in college, at the end of semester (usually the last week) every student in the class was handed out a form of ten questionnairs. we students use it to evaluate our teachers' performance and the administration office use it as the source to grade their teachers. Does this system exist in HK? I do not mean to provoke any stubborn pigheads and for those teachers( you too, Miss Chan) who have a chance to read this blog pardon me for saying these. God bless you all. Gary Leung '70 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Tat 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/2/2006 11:40:00 PM 大鼻兄: 天地君親師乃中國傳統思想，老師在中國地位超然，為其他民族所冇，你我改變不了。 至於自由經濟如何等如弱肉強食的原始社會，令貧者越貧，走向暴動，貪污腐敗，貪得無厭，搾取資源等等，我真係冇本事回應你啲高見。 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Big Nose 1977 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/2/2006 10:57:00 PM Tat, Your mind set is hard for me to follow but I am trying. Firstly, I don't see if and how Chinese teachers are more "superior" than teachers of any other race. Please help me to understand if you can. Secondly, correct me if I am wrong, I seem to get the impression that you are a strong believer in "the fit ones will survive" theory; it might hold true in a primitive world but in this modern world we live in, where we are restricted by laws and whatsoever and where other entities (e.g. US, UN) can have much influence (or interference) over how a country is run, I do not believe we can go back to a primitive world. A free market will widen the gap between the rich and poor [in terms of money and/or power], and if it goes off the tangent, it might well result in social unrest, upheaval and perhaps riots ... history shows us that it happens time and time again (e.g. Solomon Islands)... A free market can also breed corruption and unethical practices. A free market will produce 'rich" people, and some rich people would become contented and complacent and often these people will become less effective and they would become a drain of the resources (look around and you would see much of these people around us)... I am not against it; just that I believe every system has flaws and the best solution is really to strike the balance ... minimise most of the critical flaws and accept the minor ones. There is no perfect system as we all know... 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Tat 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/2/2006 10:31:00 PM 大鼻兄： 中國人有一套幾千年的師徒道德邏輯，所謂天地君親師，老師地位僅次雙親，即使老師對自己的要求都比其他從業員為高，這也許是中國人的優點吧！ 我其實覺得老師只是三級生產者Tertiary Producer，有能力者應可享高薪，與朗拿甸奴，碧咸無異，絕對不是今天的教育大鑊飯，教師薪酬的多寡，由政府代替市場決定，間接令能力高的人遠離教師行業，最後政府干预的結果是令學生，家長與社會損失。 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: bIG noSE 1977 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/2/2006 9:35:00 PM Thanks for the comment, what you have said is admirable ... in reality, I wonder how many teachers think like that ....!? In a way, a school is not that much different than a commercial compnay - where teachers are staff of a company; where most, if not all, teachers want a reasonably good career development, job satisfaction and juicy rewards - like Mr. Average working in a company ... The question is, why should we expect teachers to treat every customer (pupil), without fail, with all the heart ... I don't think everyone working for a commerical company is expected to treat every customer with all the heart, without fail...? In a way, I just feel sorry for the teachers ... 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: 626 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/2/2006 9:07:00 PM 每個人心中有一分智慧和慈悲，作為老師，換醒心中本來的智慧，有了這份共識，就可以培養學生本來的智慧，做到有利於學生的事業，憑著這番體諒，可以開展人性的美善，不以名利為衡量，追求卓越。 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: 701 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/1/2006 4:43:00 PM 阿甘遇到兩個老師﹕ 一次﹐甲老師係全班面前對他說﹕看你讀書無出息﹗ 一次﹐乙老師係全班面前對他說﹕這位同學很有潛質﹗ 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Big Nose 1977 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 5/1/2006 1:29:00 AM Why not? I am not asking the teachers to name names. I am just asking as a matter of principle, if, what and how they think about the students they teach. I guess if not answer is the answer, that's fine by me. 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: Ng Wai Chung 吳偉聰 主題: re:老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 4/30/2006 11:30:00 PM 我相信老師們，很難公開地回答你，你這個問題正如，子女們齊齊問父母，我們當中，你愛那一個多一些？標準答案，就是：每個�m一樣，無分彼此。 不過，你帶出了另一個很有趣的題目，三歲是否定八十 ? 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋 留言人: 大鼻1977 主題: 老師,我唔明... 留言日期: 4/30/2006 11:10:00 AM 我一直都想知,其實你地眼中教D學生 (在中學時), 當年能否看得出他們將來如何發展,呼邊成仁,邊個成虫? 又回看多年,看中的又有幾何? 三歲定八十,是耶,非耶? 又能否看得出來? 回上頁 | 主頁 | 搜尋