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¯d¨¥¤H: steve(70) ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 2/2/2006 8:24:00 AM Sam Thanks so much for your hospitality and invitation. I'll definitely stay at your place next time if I come to visit. BTW I'll be going to Cambodia too in later March. May be we can link up together if we can meet at the bounder of both countries. Steve ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: ¾G´Ë ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/31/2006 8:24:00 PM Steve, You are more than welcome to further explore Down Under and stay at my place next time. In fact there are still many OZ spots I have never been to so far. I will not be able to join you during your visit to Hong Kong in March/April. Lucky you that Miss Chan is happy to see you. I may be holidaying in Vietnam with wife, in mid-March, but I will be nowhere near Hong Kong. Next time, perhaps. Cheers Sam ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: steve(70) ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/31/2006 3:45:00 PM Hi Sam My wife and I will be in HK between March 17 and April 7. Will you be doing the same too? We haven't seen you and our teacher Chan Ming Sang since when we visited you in Australia in the year of 2000. We loved Down Under very much and hopefully we will visit the west coast and the bad-land next time we come to visit again. Happy New Year. Steve ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: ¾G´Ë ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/22/2006 10:27:00 AM I believe the lack of transparency is the root of all problems. Unfortunately no government is capable or interested to provide the necessary transparency in all sectors. ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Tat ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/22/2006 2:16:00 AM Free trade can make all parties better off is Economics ABC. If you still challenge this line of reasoning, I have nothing to say anymore. Otherwise, you can ask older generation for HK society how could well-developed from nothing? From your words, the poor people find it easy to be exploited legally. (That's why I deem you dislike competition, may be I get you wrong) This situation occurs in close society frequently, but not in capitalism society. Do you think your TV exchange case will happen in open society, just like HK, UK or Germany? I don't think so. Of course I know free market should have monitor system. A government which maintain law & order, defined property right, set up rules of economic games, enforce contract, promote competition, provide a monetary framework, assist charity organization & etc, Agree?? I have to watch football game. Good night. ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nise - 1977 ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 5:30:00 PM I don't know why you think I am afraid of competition. You tend you imagine things a bit from time to time. All things being equal, how can you have a situation where we could grow out of nothing and that all parties involved are winners - there is an instrument called inflated bubble that might present such solution - but one day, when the bubble bursted; go and look for the guys who are holding the bucket! As for the deal of exchanging display units, the key word is IF ... whoever is prepared to sign for taking up a 14" B&W TV so that the opposition take a 60" LCD; he is a "poor" guy (someone who is stupid or in the lower end of the bargaining power) and someone is exploiting the other, that's for sure (not to say this is a crime, just that if there is no ot little control to maintain the balance, we would have a problem)... Free market is good but there needs to be some controlling mechanism to keep the balance...or we will have a vicious circle; no end of problems... ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Tat ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 4:16:00 PM Why do you afraid of competition suddenly? Free market does not guarantee everyone has the same reward but it is relatively fair system. I don¡¦t how much percentage of poor/wealth population is bad/good for the society. In capitalism society, although I¡¦m not 20% wealth population, I still have change to maximize my gains legally. I don¡¦t subscribe the free trade is zero sum game. Let¡¦s study HK economic development experience. It is not only HK better off, but also HK¡¦s major trade partners are also better off. We can grow together. The poor is extremely complex problem, which insists of, monopoly, dictatorship, less information flow, close society, corruption, high illiterate rate, & etc. I can guarantee you that it is nothing to do with free trade. As for your last question, if I agree to exchange 60¡¦ LCD TV with your 14¡¨ TV & sign a formal contract, this is a very ration deal. Why not!! ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose - 1977 ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 1:11:00 PM Free market, free trade brings certain improvements to a society, that I agree. But not without costs - you will often find as a result, 80% of wealth would end up going to 20% of the population. Is this good? I don't know but I would say it is good so long I am in the 20% and not the other 80% of the population. Free market and free trade are good for fighters and people in luck, and present a dog-eat-dog world where the fittest will survive. In today's world, open free market means others can come and help you speed up improvement on infrastructure and the rest; however, please do not forget that opening the doors would inevitably leave holes in defence, after all, outsiders come to do business with you has one objective in mind, to make profits...in a zero sum transaction - someone has to give; and it is usually the poor people ... I am more than happy to come to your house to install a 14" B&W TV in your home, so long you allow me to take advantage of you to provide me the latest huge 60" LCD in my home ... how would you like such free market ...? ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Tat ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 12:18:00 PM Free market can give you an upward mobility. A poor public housing estate boy can become the wealth man if he works hard, smart, well-educated, or even lucky. This is typical HK story. From fishing village & refugee shelter to international financial centre, many western counties amaze HK economic achievement in these 50 years. HK didn't have stable political environment before 1982 or 1983 joint declaration. Do you still remember 1967(I haven't born)? British government has considered to abandon HK if Red Army really run into Shenzhen River. HK also does not have any natural resources even water. HK British didn't have any economic plan, just like PRC's 5(10)-year economic plan. Why still success? FREE PORT, FREE MARKET, legal system, simple tax system, Chinese talent &¡K¡K... The economic achievement of HK has really shorten the distance between poor & rich. If you compare so-called Lion Rock Mountain period & now, you can discover the line between poor & rich is becoming fuzzy. Almost all of HK people have their houses, cookers, TVs, washers & other basic electric appliances. We can take bus or MTR to our destinations. Poor & rich can enjoy the similar life, except luxurious housing, goods or services. Without capitalism or free market, HK is another Cambodia Originally, communist system wants to make everybody rich, but the story turned out is to make everybody extremely poor. All the communist countries are closed society, not open & FREE. I think we have same thought in this point. I am only an ordinary Pui Shing old boy & don't have so-called °í®Æ. Once again, Master Shum Lin-Ying & Master Chan Lok-sang are ¤~¤l, but I'm not. To Hong: There is no Othello here, no need to play the role of Iago. I know you have your own point, speak out! ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose - 1977 ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 8:49:00 AM Hong, When adults are talking, kids should remain quiet. Remember, there is always a mountain higher than the highest mountain you climb or know about ... so learn to be more humble ... I respect Tat as a person and also as a Pui Shing old boy - no one needs to show their °í®Æ here ... if you read my other message here in this forum, I actually loath people going around showing quali...I also loath people coming around looking for so and so who has quali and claim they know them... For me, the most important element here is the old boy's heart and the innocence amongst the old boys that hardly really exist in the real world outside ... (this I mean, we old boys grew up together, I don't need to shoe-shine any who have become sucessful, and we show brotherly love to those who are none so well off too)...I don't care if and what achievment my fellow Pui Shing old boy have ... I drink and eat with them anytime ... Hong, think about it, and move up a level, okay? ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose - 1977 ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 8:27:00 AM Tat, Firstly, I don't understand why you mentioned you have so many U's, as I don't see it has anything to do with the argument here. Free market can shorten the distance between poor & rich - disagree, free market will actually widen the distance between rish and poor, look around the world and you will see plenty examples ... free market will allow more opportunities for those who want to be rich; work hard and work smart, and with a bit of luck, would become rich ... A communist country would drive a shorter distance between rich and poor, when everyone is on RMB 200 a month, and when capitalism is very much a crime, no one dare get rich ... Is the distance between rich and poor short really a good thing? Is this the purpose of a free market? I am afraid I can't agree with you on this point. ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Tat ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 8:21:00 AM Never mind, this is the fact. Everybody can snort at me but I¡¦m still remorseful myself have never studied English before Form 6. That's why if I have children, I will send them to international school. It is extremely painful to learn basic grammar at 17 or 18. ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Hong ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 1:10:00 AM ¤~¤lTat,°µÉA¦P¤HÁ¿¦Û¤v­^¤å¤Î¼Æ¾Ç´¿ü«U§r,¤ñ¤H§A¦ê°Õ.¾p­ø¾p§ÚÃz§AD°í®Æ¥X©O? ¥ò¦³¦hÁ§A¤µ±ßÀ\°ª¯Å¶º. ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Tat ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 12:42:00 AM Big Nose: My Higher Level Maths also got U grade! I'm talking to my Si Hing Dai. I don't need to show off here. I agree there is no absolute fairness in the world, but education is involved in the next generation, our children. Free market can shorten the distance between poor & rich. ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose - 1977 ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/21/2006 12:11:00 AM Tat, Firsly, I can believe you 1st Higher Level English result was U!!!!!! Secondly, stop dreaming about fairness. The world is not fair, period. The nearest you can get to have a taste of fairness is when you are a winner, leader, on top! Like it or not, smart people would spend their energy wisely and look up; whilst others would sit on the floor, wearing soiled underwear and soap like a baby... Lastly, I don't care if the main objective of International schools is to make money; I only care what I can get out of the deal. So long I can afford the price and I get the goods (my children are happy, health, can learn to become a better person and get a piece of paper that helps to launch a good career etc etc), I take the deal. It is as simple as that. People are too busy wasting time bitching about what others make; claiming victims ... I guess we need losers or we won't have winners ... ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Tat ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/20/2006 11:52:00 PM ±ç©w°ê: We should get rid of government education bureau. We can live better with less government control. We can do it. Why worry? ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Tat ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/20/2006 11:37:00 PM Big Nose, I don't deem only international school student can enter into top class University as well. I could also be received post-graduate education from North America top class University through extremely work hard. I can tell you my 1st Higher Level English result was U!!!!!! Although I don't have children, I can understand all parents want to educate their children to be better and smarter. In Hong Kong, however, the choice is given to those parents can afford the over-priced school fee, just like you. Is it fair? Also, do you think the major purpose of international school is to turn Hong Kong children into better and smarter?? Of course NOT. These international schools are only seeking for profit, which do not have good intention like Confucian traditional education philosophy, so called ¡§YAN¡¦ or ¡§YEE¡¨. In Hong Kong everybody votes for international school rather than government school, provided that they can afford it. Why? It is because the parents (student) are international school's honorable customers. They have to suit for customer's basic need---provide better education. This is simple free market mechanism. This is the powerful capitalism. This is real world. ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: ±ç©w°ê ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/20/2006 11:32:00 PM I don't think the capitalism system is the best approach to tackle the present situation in our education circle. But if one wants to talk about study coupons and free competition, I am willing to say something in following the tone of talking about capitalism concept to manage our education system. But first of all, is there any Free Competition in our capitalism societyin H.K.? I don't think so. The government's educational policies are devised and based on "dominant everything is accountability" thoughts. Following this thinking path, they dominate the Teaching Medium, the allocation method of junior places in secondary schools are totally failure. Why? It's because they limit most parents' choices in selecing English Medium Schools and they narrow up the Banding System which has been changed from five bandings into three. It makes our teaching in the classrooms much more difficult. Are all these policies belonged to a capitalism system's normal operation? The answer is of course not. One of the features of Capitalism System is totally competition which means Freedom to Choose. Now, let us look at our teachers' status. Do all of them survive normally in a capitalism society? I don't think so. If we are really "capitalism teachers", we should have our market status which means we can have our right to choose high-pay teaching posts. But has our government examined the present teachers' salary system and tried to change it? The answer is of course not. I agree that when we get our salaries, it shouldn't be an all-round treatment. If someone does more and effectively, he/she should get more. And vice versa. However, If we ask our teachers to have different salary treatment, I don't think our government officials should have the exemplary right. Better of them, earn more; worse of them, earn less, because our society is capitalism, so, there should be free competition, it means each one has a market status. Worker harder, can suffer more, of course the guy can get more, is it right? If we ask our teachers if they don't like their career, they can leave; in the same meaning, why can't I ask our government officials to leave if they can't perform their work the best? However, if we ask our government officials to leave at once, do they agree? In the same theory, why do we ask our teachers to leave if they can't suffer very heavy workload? At last, I don't think if a teacher leaves his/her job, he/she can't get an ideal job. The real and crucial point is, who has the right to ask another one to leave? If this guy can ask such question, why can't I ask this guy to leave first??? Is he/she the God so he/she can dominate others? If yes, can we talk in this very totalitarian way under the meaning of capitalism system? Hahahaha!!! ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Big NOse - 1977 ¥DÃD: re:Teacher ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/20/2006 7:32:00 PM I am not suggesting International schools are the best soluiotn with flaws - one thing for sure, I believe they are over-priced - the teaching staff are way over paid... If I have a better solution, I probably would not take my children to an International school. But this to me, at present, the better choice so I bend down, pay my dues and bite the dust ... The good news is, my bet gets two of my sons into a top class University and more importantly, turns them into a better and smarter people ... I will place the best bet available; and not cry about not getting HKSAR's free education ... What's your bet? ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Tat ¥DÃD: Teacher's salary ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/20/2006 7:03:00 PM Following Big Nose's essay, I also find Hong Kong people still don't trust market-based solutions. We're not allowed to have them. Without meaningful educational choice, government has a virtual monopoly on the provision of primary and secondary education. That's why Hong Kong teacher's salary has never based on performance, it should enforce mediocrity. Since most parents can't exercise meaningful choice, the costs of mediocrity, which a market-based system would impose directly on schools failing to provide value for money, are not borne by education service providers. In my opinion, private schools are an effective market based solution. Actually, majority Hong Kong middle-class parents are voting for my opinion because many of them are sending their children to international school. Each has a price, a mandate from parents to provide the best education that money will buy, and the flexibility to allocate it among salaries, facilities, and administration and teaching materials. If product quality isn't there, buyers go elsewhere. Vastly more parents could elect this market solution if they were given vouchers to do so. Free market can enhance both teacher productivity and produce better student performance. ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose - 1977 ¥DÃD: re:¿ù»~ªº·Qªk ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/20/2006 3:37:00 PM I probaly agree with most of what you are saying here .... Having said that; why it seems that we are taking teachers being the only victim? What teachers are suffering here and now, there are millions round us who are worse off than the teachers ... policemen, firemen, medical people etc etc ... not to mention the third world ... I would consider myself for one who suffer much more than an average teacher (i.e. I pay more taxes than an avergae teacher; I am under more pressure than an average teacher; I receive much less from the government than an average teacher ... etc etc) and I find my own solution. I believe there are plenty of US ... I just don't understand why teachers are just moaning and complaining ... as if they are at the bottom of the ladder - life is not perfect and everyone has a story ... who should the government help; there are just too many victims ... if the government helps the teachers, the policemen and others will be up in arms screaming ... what is the solution in society where resources are limited? ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M ¯d¨¥¤H: ±ç©w°ê ¥DÃD: ¿ù»~ªº·Qªk ¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 1/20/2006 12:19:00 AM §{¶¡¦³¤@ºØ»~¸Ñ:±Ð®v¤H¤u°ª,¾·~í©w,­¹±oÄг½©è±o´÷,¦³À£¤O«YÀ³¸Ó¡C¦ý¬O±Ð®v¯Çµ|¦P¼Ë«Ü­«,¤S­n¾i°ª°ó¦P¤l¤k,¤S­n¨Ñ¼Ó,¤ô,¹q,·Ñ®ð®t»èºÞ²z¶O,¤C°£¤K¦©,¸Õ°Ý¦³´X¦h¿ú³Ñ¤U¨Ó?¤H¤u°ª?ªL·çÅï,ù­S§ó°ª,¦ý¥L­Ìªº¤u§@µL¤HÃÑ°µ«§?ù¤Ó¥¼Åª±Ð¨|ºÓ¤h¤wµo°_±Ð¨|­²©R,¨­¬°°ª©x³£ËÝ©öÁ¿¿ù,Ãø¹D¥L­Ì¤H¤u¤£¬O¤Ó°ª¶Ü? ¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M